Belly dance and religion - Page 23

sultan · 05-10-2007, 02:50 AM

Belly dance and religion:

I have only now entered into the dialog and did not get a chance to read all of the earlier posts. Therefore, if what I write has been discussed previously, please pardon my ignorance and tardiness.

There is some misconception that 'belly dance' is an erotic practice design to promote prurient states of mind or some other gruesome thought pattern. As I write in my personal into, this myth is totally without basis. My religious background is Catholic with Sephardic Jewish ancestry (with just a touch of Morisco or Spanish-Arabic somewhere along the line). I believe Oriental dance to be Divinely bestowed upon humanity.

The 'belly dance' is performed with cymbals, bare feet, with hip movement, arms and hands reaching to the heavens, and with great rejoicing. This is precisely how the "virgin dance" is described in the Bible. The performer was similarly dressed, used a timbal or tambourine, reached to the heavens, and peformed with great rejoicing. She did so "to make merry" to "both young men and old together ... and turn mourning to joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from sorrow." Jeremiah 31:4, 13. In the Books of Samuel and Exodus other instances are presented where similar dances were performed to bring rejoicing to the people -- the dancer praises God with movements and instruments used by today's ''belly dancers''.

Go to any Sephardic Messianic Jewish religious service today and you will see the same thing. The dancer will be barefooted, she will wear garments that resemble the belly dancer's costume, she will flail her arms to the heavens, she will move her hips, and she will use the same instruments that her sisters did centuries ago -- instruments that are similar to those used today by some of you who perform the so-called belly dance.

Some misguided people feel that 'belly dance' should only be performed in front of women. But if that is the case, why is this not specifically mandated in the Bible? Why is it stated that it is designed to bring joy to young and to old men?

For those who feel Oriental dance is immoral or designed for prurient purposes I say to you that you are profaning a Divine gift that is intended for your joy and to end all grief. Yes, I say it now for all the world to see: Oriental dance is sacred!

For those of you who subscribe to Abrahamic religions, you have the Bible to confirm that truth.

Blessings upon all who perform and who rejoice in Oriental or "virgin" dance!

Aziyade · 05-10-2007, 01:24 PM

Good points, Sultan.

The biggest misconception I encounter in the cornfields is people thinking bellydance is just wiggling, and it's easy; but, there is a certain hint of "naughty-ness" with the dance -- possibly because of the word "belly" -- and so people are usually very shyly curious about what it is I REALLY do.

BUT -- while I (and hopefully my students) know that bellydance isn't obscene, there are LOTS of teachers and dancers out there who REVEL in the "bad rep" that bellydance might have, and really exploit that. They use bellydance as a vehicle for bringing all their sexual dysfunction and emotional baggage to the stage, or they think it's "sexy" to crawl around like a cat in heat. One horrific performance like that stays in the minds of the public a heck of a lot longer than one good performance.

Although I never personally have had a student say, "I'm Christian, is it okay for me to bellydance?" I HAVE had a couple of potential students ask me if they had to be WICCAN (or otherwise pagan) to dance. ??????? huh? But there's a lot of local crossover between our local goddess-worshippers and the bellydancers, and I guess somewhere the two things got connected.

A'isha and the MEDance list have been having a wonderful ongoing discussion about what is "Sexy" and is bellydance sexy, etc. Part of the problem with misconceptions about bellydance is misconceptions about what "SEXY" means, as is obvious by some of the comments on that thread. Sexy, to me, is just expressing your natural feminine or masculine energy and joy and passion -- it's not about getting a person all "hot and bothered."

I find these videos "sexy" because of the power and energy of the dancers.
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Getting a person all "hot and bothered" is the rep that bellydance has for a lot of people, and I can see how that goal doesn't really mesh with the goal of a lot of religions. But we dancers on this board KNOW that bellydance isn't about getting the seats wet (as Morocco so eloquently put it), so it doesn't make any sense for us why there should be religious restrictions on this form of dancing.

But none of US is probably crawling around on stage like a cat in heat, either.

sultan · 05-10-2007, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the compliment.

Instead of allowing ourselves to have our minds clouded by modern sensibilities, we need to reflect upon the transcendent attributes and values of the dance. We when watched a sword dance, let's remember that the daughters of Israel sang and danced in precisely the same manner as in the cites I posted above when Saul and David returned triumphantly from battle {1 Samuel 18:6}, that prophetees Miriam and the other women did the same after the Pharoah's forces were vanquished through Divine intervention {Exodus 15:20}, and other sisters did the same when David slew Goliath {1 Samuel 29:5}. The dances were done in praise of God for creating these triumphs and for preserving the lives of the believers. If people were to remain mindful of the metaphysical origin of Oriental dance, they would revere it as the Divine gift that it is. As to how to convey that message of the dance's origin and intent, well that's up to practioners like you and others who are a lot smarter than I am and who can convey that blessed message more readily.

charity · 05-11-2007, 05:33 PM

uh-oh. no i'm kidding i think this discussion can be had with a bit more sensitivity than some issues call for. because my time is limited i have only read the first page of posts and this is my response to PAGE 1 only.

i think that in some religions certain provocative dance is looked down upon not because of what the individuals themselves think but because of what god thinks.

and in their faith the utmost loyalty is to god, for them to partake of dance and even observe it by a woman is temptous and hypocritical of the faith.

these are only theories mind you and perhaps temptous is not a word.

i have more experience with christianity because i live in america, so i feel i have the earned right to say that when hard-core christians protest it is in the context of a "whorish" society and culture. it's not just belly dance they protest but other acts that they feel lend to the decay of "civilized"/"righteous" living. they take it upon themselves to decide what god will approve or not approve of.

to me I FEEL, they take it upon themselves to decide what is right or wrong for me and the world and sometimes not so much themselves. i have not read the bible in its entire-ity but have read enough.
i used to tell the devout when they poke and prod mercilessly that the only reason i read so much was so that i could know my enemy. hehe, i still laugh when i recall.

i say these things cause i am a bastard to religion. no faith owns me but spirituality guides me.

Aisha Azar · 05-11-2007, 09:14 PM

[quote=charity;29783]uh-oh. no i'm kidding i think this discussion can be had with a bit more sensitivity than some issues call for. because my time is limited i have only read the first page of posts and this is my response to PAGE 1 only.

i think that in some religions certain provocative dance is looked down upon not because of what the individuals themselves think but because of what god thinks.

Dear Charity,
And what mere human being would have the audacity to think they, exclusively, know what GOD thinks?? One of the most ignorant comments I have ever heard in my life was when someone said to me, "God doesn't like that".
When I see the hand of God it has very little to do with what is written to condemn others in any text, which were after all, written by mortals, and since there is no uninspired Word, Thought or Deed if we follow MY religious code, the way to tell what God thinks is to merely look around and see what is happening. If you ask me it is ALL what God thinks. This ties in nicely with religions that claim God is all seiing, all knowing, etc. I do not have to understand this, but I do accept it and recognize that I, in reality know exactly as much as any other person, about what God thinks.... which in truth means I know nothing for sure.
The truth is that we are ALL only guessing and your guess is as good as mine until the moment someone tries to shove their guess down my throat!
Regards,
A'isha

charity · 05-12-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Charity,
And what mere human being would have the audacity to think they, exclusively, know what GOD thinks?? One of the most ignorant comments I have ever heard in my life was when someone said to me, "God doesn't like that".
Regards,
A'isha

i dont know a'isha. i wonder that myself. i think of that song from a long time ago: "if i claim to be a wise man, it surely means that i dont know"

certain fanatics act like they have more vested in God than any others. they believe they have earned favor of God because of their righteous ways. and because of it- i think- they have elevated themselves to a status that allows them to sit in judgement and condemnation of others. i dont believe any religion promotes hate and criticism, these people are arrogant and self righteous. that has nothing to do with God.

people must get annoyed when the topic goes off subject, but i always do, get off subject that is.

i am with you a'isha, no human can ever know what God thinks.

05-11-2007, 09:14 PM	#225 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,744	Religion [quote=charity;29783]uh-oh. no i'm kidding i think this discussion can be had with a bit more sensitivity than some issues call for. because my time is limited i have only read the first page of posts and this is my response to PAGE 1 only. i think that in some religions certain provocative dance is looked down upon not because of what the individuals themselves think but because of what god thinks. Dear Charity, And what mere human being would have the audacity to think they, exclusively, know what GOD thinks?? One of the most ignorant comments I have ever heard in my life was when someone said to me, "God doesn't like that". When I see the hand of God it has very little to do with what is written to condemn others in any text, which were after all, written by mortals, and since there is no uninspired Word, Thought or Deed if we follow MY religious code, the way to tell what God thinks is to merely look around and see what is happening. If you ask me it is ALL what God thinks. This ties in nicely with religions that claim God is all seiing, all knowing, etc. I do not have to understand this, but I do accept it and recognize that I, in reality know exactly as much as any other person, about what God thinks.... which in truth means I know nothing for sure. The truth is that we are ALL only guessing and your guess is as good as mine until the moment someone tries to shove their guess down my throat! Regards, A'isha Last edited by Aisha Azar; 05-12-2007 at 04:13 PM.

05-10-2007, 02:50 AM	#221 (permalink)
sultan Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 151	Belly dance and religion: I have only now entered into the dialog and did not get a chance to read all of the earlier posts. Therefore, if what I write has been discussed previously, please pardon my ignorance and tardiness. There is some misconception that 'belly dance' is an erotic practice design to promote prurient states of mind or some other gruesome thought pattern. As I write in my personal into, this myth is totally without basis. My religious background is Catholic with Sephardic Jewish ancestry (with just a touch of Morisco or Spanish-Arabic somewhere along the line). I believe Oriental dance to be Divinely bestowed upon humanity. The 'belly dance' is performed with cymbals, bare feet, with hip movement, arms and hands reaching to the heavens, and with great rejoicing. This is precisely how the "virgin dance" is described in the Bible. The performer was similarly dressed, used a timbal or tambourine, reached to the heavens, and peformed with great rejoicing. She did so "to make merry" to "both young men and old together ... and turn mourning to joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from sorrow." Jeremiah 31:4, 13. In the Books of Samuel and Exodus other instances are presented where similar dances were performed to bring rejoicing to the people -- the dancer praises God with movements and instruments used by today's ''belly dancers''. Go to any Sephardic Messianic Jewish religious service today and you will see the same thing. The dancer will be barefooted, she will wear garments that resemble the belly dancer's costume, she will flail her arms to the heavens, she will move her hips, and she will use the same instruments that her sisters did centuries ago -- instruments that are similar to those used today by some of you who perform the so-called belly dance. Some misguided people feel that 'belly dance' should only be performed in front of women. But if that is the case, why is this not specifically mandated in the Bible? Why is it stated that it is designed to bring joy to young and to old men? For those who feel Oriental dance is immoral or designed for prurient purposes I say to you that you are profaning a Divine gift that is intended for your joy and to end all grief. Yes, I say it now for all the world to see: Oriental dance is sacred! For those of you who subscribe to Abrahamic religions, you have the Bible to confirm that truth. Blessings upon all who perform and who rejoice in Oriental or "virgin" dance!

05-10-2007, 01:24 PM	#222 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	Good points, Sultan. The biggest misconception I encounter in the cornfields is people thinking bellydance is just wiggling, and it's easy; but, there is a certain hint of "naughty-ness" with the dance -- possibly because of the word "belly" -- and so people are usually very shyly curious about what it is I REALLY do. BUT -- while I (and hopefully my students) know that bellydance isn't obscene, there are LOTS of teachers and dancers out there who REVEL in the "bad rep" that bellydance might have, and really exploit that. They use bellydance as a vehicle for bringing all their sexual dysfunction and emotional baggage to the stage, or they think it's "sexy" to crawl around like a cat in heat. One horrific performance like that stays in the minds of the public a heck of a lot longer than one good performance. Although I never personally have had a student say, "I'm Christian, is it okay for me to bellydance?" I HAVE had a couple of potential students ask me if they had to be WICCAN (or otherwise pagan) to dance. ??????? huh? But there's a lot of local crossover between our local goddess-worshippers and the bellydancers, and I guess somewhere the two things got connected. A'isha and the MEDance list have been having a wonderful ongoing discussion about what is "Sexy" and is bellydance sexy, etc. Part of the problem with misconceptions about bellydance is misconceptions about what "SEXY" means, as is obvious by some of the comments on that thread. Sexy, to me, is just expressing your natural feminine or masculine energy and joy and passion -- it's not about getting a person all "hot and bothered." I find these videos "sexy" because of the power and energy of the dancers. YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. Getting a person all "hot and bothered" is the rep that bellydance has for a lot of people, and I can see how that goal doesn't really mesh with the goal of a lot of religions. But we dancers on this board KNOW that bellydance isn't about getting the seats wet (as Morocco so eloquently put it), so it doesn't make any sense for us why there should be religious restrictions on this form of dancing. But none of US is probably crawling around on stage like a cat in heat, either.

05-10-2007, 09:00 PM	#223 (permalink)
sultan Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 151	Thanks for the compliment. Instead of allowing ourselves to have our minds clouded by modern sensibilities, we need to reflect upon the transcendent attributes and values of the dance. We when watched a sword dance, let's remember that the daughters of Israel sang and danced in precisely the same manner as in the cites I posted above when Saul and David returned triumphantly from battle {1 Samuel 18:6}, that prophetees Miriam and the other women did the same after the Pharoah's forces were vanquished through Divine intervention {Exodus 15:20}, and other sisters did the same when David slew Goliath {1 Samuel 29:5}. The dances were done in praise of God for creating these triumphs and for preserving the lives of the believers. If people were to remain mindful of the metaphysical origin of Oriental dance, they would revere it as the Divine gift that it is. As to how to convey that message of the dance's origin and intent, well that's up to practioners like you and others who are a lot smarter than I am and who can convey that blessed message more readily.

05-11-2007, 05:33 PM	#224 (permalink)
charity Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: north carolina Posts: 819	uh-oh. no i'm kidding i think this discussion can be had with a bit more sensitivity than some issues call for. because my time is limited i have only read the first page of posts and this is my response to PAGE 1 only. i think that in some religions certain provocative dance is looked down upon not because of what the individuals themselves think but because of what god thinks. and in their faith the utmost loyalty is to god, for them to partake of dance and even observe it by a woman is temptous and hypocritical of the faith. these are only theories mind you and perhaps temptous is not a word. i have more experience with christianity because i live in america, so i feel i have the earned right to say that when hard-core christians protest it is in the context of a "whorish" society and culture. it's not just belly dance they protest but other acts that they feel lend to the decay of "civilized"/"righteous" living. they take it upon themselves to decide what god will approve or not approve of. to me I FEEL, they take it upon themselves to decide what is right or wrong for me and the world and sometimes not so much themselves. i have not read the bible in its entire-ity but have read enough. i used to tell the devout when they poke and prod mercilessly that the only reason i read so much was so that i could know my enemy. hehe, i still laugh when i recall. i say these things cause i am a bastard to religion. no faith owns me but spirituality guides me.